Monday, September 24, 2007

Quotable Quotes

Here are some quotes we kind of like.
* The idea is not just to swallow a religion pill handed to you by an authority figure, but rather to try, to test, to probe, to investigate. We cannot emphasize too strongly that you should encourage in yourself that skepticism which you may have been told is wrong.
* If after conversation and discussions with outsiders you feel that some tenet of Wicca is not consonant with the true path, try a variation. Don't be so dogmatic in your beliefs that you insist only you are correct. This is tantamount to believing you are God.
* Don't blindly follow the methods we advocate, but when you make changes, make them with understanding. Beware of the destroyers.
* Divine knowledge is not borrowed from books. It must be realized in oneself. Scriptural texts cannot supersede reason. The principal books are doubly distilled : they come from a human prophet and have now been interpreted and translated.
We could simply challenge you to find the sources of these quotes, but today we're feeling amiable. So here are a couple more to give you a clue.
* No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen (18).
* Since very few females coming to initiation are virgin, the use of the phallus is usually dropped. This was included as part of Craft heritage in line with the age-old practice universal among preliterate societies. We would now recommend the use of condoms rather than IUDs for contraception and for prevention of sexually transmitted diseases.
* The Craft is not a police-state religion saying "Live on my terms or go to hell," but one in which freedom of expression is encouraged.
All of the above quotes come from "Good Witch's Bible".
Blessed be those who seek. Gavin and Yvonne

13 comments:

Blue Skull said...

Dear Gavin & Yvonne,

I have never read the "Good Witches Bible," and was not aware of the controversy that surrounded it until a couple of years ago. Community and I have never been much for each other, my family tends to be loners in many ways. But once on introducing myself to a local community online pagan group, I proudly mentioned that I had been a student of Yvonne's. This triggered some very volatile responses towards me. Then I learned about all the controversy surrounding the "Good Witches Bible." It did not change my respect for Yvonne or Gavin. My studies with you took me from a path that was contrary to civil obedience. It helped reunite my wife, children, and myself as a family. What others say and feel about you or your writings will never persuade my own personal opinions. Many things I have said and did over the years have proven to be wrong. Somethings you have said or did over the years have proven to be wrong. We learn from our mistakes and move ahead. Some people consider me to have a very dark soul. Others have complimented me on being such a good person. Perceptions are personal observances and easily tarnished or polished. One of your early lessons I studied talked about this. I have taken some things from your lessons and left behind many others. One thing your lessons did teach me, is that I am an individual, if something you or someone else writes does not agree to me, leave it alone.

Sincerely,
David H.
Houston, TX

The Pagan Temple said...

Sounds good to me.

WHOOOAHHH though, wait a minute, what's this I see here-

"No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen (18)."

WHOOOPS!!

Looks like a certain person didn't read their copy of "Good Withes Bible" as good as that certain person would like everybody to think. Maybe he and his friends should go back and "just read the book, folks."

Uuuuhhhhh-

WOW!

Carol Maltby said...

Speaking of evasions...

Gavin, what was the title of your doctoral dissertation, and in what library can it be found? It's not in the holdings of the Kings College London library, and officials there say there is no record that you attended the school.

No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen (18).

I have questions about activities that are not part of the formal initiation ceremony.

Did you stop advocating that daddies should help their daughters with dildos? If so, when?

Did you stop advocating that a child have 3 days of fasting, and then drink mead in circle before ritual sex? If so, when?

Did you stop advocating that children should see a live sex demonstration before their first sexual experience? If so, when?

"Dimensional deviations in phalli are sometimes required. The need is determined between the sponsor and the flamenca."

How do Yvonne and the sponsor determine what size phallus a child needs before her first intercourse?

Since very few females coming to initiation are virgin, the use of the phallus is usually dropped.

Why do you claim that non-virgins won't have to use the phallus on page 61, yet on page 99 you originally say "Each female initiate, whether virgin or not, uses the phalli"?

This was included as part of Craft heritage in line with the age-old practice universal among preliterate societies.

You cited Marshack, yet nothing he says in the book
supports that theory, and in fact other things he says contradict your attempt to use his work as a template. What Marshack quotes from Roots of Civilization do you feel corroborate your claims?

When you say, "Nor is the flamen of the coven a sponsor, for he is too awe-inspiring," is this about Gavin, or are all your Church of Wicca flamens awe-inspiring?

Debra Ravenswood suddenly claimed recently that "Gavin read the actual quotes from the GWB while we compared them to those that you claim are copied directly from the book, man there is a HUGE difference between what you write and what is actually in the book?"

When asked to substantiate this, she disappeared. None of your supporters seemed to have any problems with the quotes until now.
Do you have the disputed text and URLs of what is claimed are incorrect transcriptions from your book?

Why did Yvonne tell Ellen Evert Hopman that incest was one of "those hideous, horrible things," yet she wrote that fathers can help their daughters with their dildos if they are having trouble inserting them?

Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.

After your evening discussion and meditation, and before you go to bed, take the smaller phallus and smear it with lubricating jelly. Either lie on your back with your knees up and legs slightly apart, or stand up and bend your knees. Spread the lips of the vagina and gently insert the phallus. Remember it must point toward the back, not up inside you. Push the phallus in until the vaginal entrance muscles close around the core. Wear it and the larger phallus in accordance with the following table, except during menstruation.

ajdrew said...

You provided a quote from the Good Witches Bible “No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen (18)”

Is this out of your self published year 2000 edition or is it out of your self published 1995 edition? I do not have the self published 1995 edition with that brief disclaimer to the section which seems to rather clearly instruct incest, molestation, and rape as initiatory paths for Wicca so I can not be 100 percent sure that the disclaimer is not in there. However, after noticing your statement in the 2000 edition I asked De-Frosters to check what copies they could find. I have now received an email which states that the 1995 edition does NOT have that disclaimer in a forward to the chapter as did the year 2000 edition.

So when exactly did you include the disclaimer? Was it only in the year 2000 edition (28 years after publication and unknown years since the original mail order teachings)? Was it shortly after I started writing to you guys complaining about it? Was it shortly after I started writing distributors to complain about it?

You have said in print that Chapter 4 contains the original teachings of the Church and School of Wicca. You two wrote the book and are the founders of the Church and School of Wicca. You have said in print that you have practiced what you teach. You have children.

Should we then believe that you practiced what you wrote and thus involved your children in these perversions or should we believe you lied and never practiced what you wrote about?

The questions are really simple Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Why not just answer them. Are you guilty of lying and misleading folk? Are you guilty of horrible perversions against children? If there is a third potential answer, I am sure folk would love to read it.

Come on guys. I am answering your questions, which are based on entirely made up basis and clearly nothing more than attempts to smear my reputation. Why won’t you answer questions based not only on what you wrote back in 1972 and what you later published in amendments to that book, but on what you are selling and promoting today, in the year 2007.

It’s not like the statute of limitations wouldn’t protect you. If you honestly think that folk should conduct themselves in accordance with that chapter and if you have done it yourself, why not admit it. Or at least admit that you lied about practicing what you teach.

Is The Good Witches Bible all just a lie?

Mom-E said...

PT,

The text continues to use the word 'child' throughout and maintains 'at the earliest possible age' and 'at the onset of menses' and encourages fathers to help their daughters with the handmade dildos and justification is used by equating the practice to fathers bathing their daughters. Also- the disclaimer wasn't there until, I believe, the 2000 edition. So yes- the disclaimer was later added, but the text remains unchanged in vital areas and the disclaimer itself, to many, is very weakly and insincerely worded. What many are saying is that the forward doesn't 'cover it' and more should have been said if their position isn't as many are taking it to be.

But wait- you'd know all this if you read the book yourself. Frankly I find it very strange that you are debating the book when you have clearly stated that you've never *read* the book, nor do you intend to. It makes discussion *about* the issue rather difficult as you cannot discuss from a place of understanding/information.

gina said...

The word "child" not women or young women mind you, apears 13 times in that passage..

ajdrew said...

Concerning Pagan Temple - Yep, s/he has some rather strong opinions on a book s/he claims to have never read. If you search this blog, you will see that s/he has made references as if s/he has read the thing. I conclude s/he is just playing games.

The only other supporter I see in here is Shadowhawk. Aimee feels he probably tried to read it but failed.

Shadowhawk said...

So Aj does Aimee do all your thinking for you..??

ajdrew said...

Here is a quote I like:

“Furthermore, we wish to strongly emphasize that child molestation or sexual conduct between adults and minors has never been condoned by our Church. It is also not condoned by sincere adherents of Wiccan (Witchcraft) traditions which are also Pagan religions.”

James Assad
6th Circle Scion Secretary of the Board
Church of All Worlds

As I understand Church of All Worlds is the oldest pagan church to be legaly incorporated in the United States, it seems their opinion on Wicca and child molestation kind of trumps the Frost's claim that such was the foundation of Wicca. After all, if we are talking about foundations we are talking about the beginning of things, yes?

It seems like the Frosts claims that chapter 4 was the original teachigns of the Church and School of Wicca combined with their claims that they founded Wicca are trumped by the earlier incorporated Church of All Worlds stating firmly that this sort of behavior has NEVER been a part of Wicca or the modern pagan movement.

Oh I love old quotes.

Rhiannon said...

Here is something I have been looking into
The Frosts say they are "The Founders of Wicca"

If this is so why is it that every book on the history of Wicca does not even mention them as having any kind of input to the beginings of Wicca whether it be in Europe or the U.S.?

ajdrew said...

Rhiannon - Stranger still is how hard it is to find references to anything they did prior to 1972 in the United States despite the many claims they make to the contrary.

The Voice of Reason said...

I see actual content of GWB is out in the open, the riff raff have taken to attacking any and every thing....I'm wondering if this is what it looks like when the raft starts to come unlaced and the logs start drifting apart.

Oh Carol, never assume that I'm not here....I'm just limited in what I can say or comment on due to the pending legal action.

And Carol, please stop yammering about Gavin's degree, as I said before you're going off half cocked. You don't have enough information to find what you claim to be looking for.

G&Y I still love both of you and hope to see ya again soon!

Love and Light to all,

Debra Ravenswood

fenix said...

Hi - me again - please feel free to contact me, since I have known the Frosts since 1971 and my parents worked for them in the seventies. You can use any number of email addies, like applcorp@gmail.com, . . . Eagerly waiting your reply!!!